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Mon, Jun. 22nd, 2009, 06:47 pm
What do you do if you have not received a package?
A buyer who has yet to receive a package from me that I mailed out 5 days ago has gone to seek help from the Small Claims Tribunal and have even consulted CASE.
Well, here's the full story: She bought 2 items from me and through a mix up, I left out one item. She received one and informed me about the 2nd item that is not in the package. I verified and acknowledged the mix up and mailed it out the very next day.
She claims she has not received the item which is worth S$18.50. The cost of the item is only inclusive of normal mail and those who are familiar with online shopping knows that the seller / sender is not liable for mails sent through normal mail. If the buyer would like a guaranteed delivery, he/she should opt for registered mail which is an additional S$2.25.
On Saturday (20th June), she emailed me, informing me that she has yet to receive the package and requested for the posting details so that she can raise a request with SingPost. Do remember, the package was mailed out on Wednesday evening (which SingPost considers it as posting on 18th June), 17th June (3 days earlier).
I furnished it to her and today (Monday, 22nd June), she told me that SingPost can't locate her package and she is seeking a refund which was the solution given to her by Small Claims Tribunal.
From the day I dropped the package off into the mailbox till today, it has been 5 days. So tell me now, am I liable for the non-delivery of the package and be claimed through our Small Claims Tribunals?
I spoke to the officer at the Subordinate Court whom she raised the request with and he said we could escalate the case where both of us take the stand and iron things out in Court. But for S$18.50, would we really want to do all that? To some, its a matter of principle but I do have sufficient feedbacks to prove that I wouldn't be scamming a person for S$18.50.
I have done online shopping (both as a seller and a buyer) for more than 5 years and I have conducted hundred over sprees, mailing out over a thousand packages. (Most of my readers here are actually my spree participants or have transacted more than once with me)
Whenever a buyer does not receive a package, I'll inform them to wait 10-14 days from the date of posting and I'll raise a request with SingPost. 90% of the time, its a delayed delivery. There is a 50-50 chance of you getting back that package due to damaged packaging or other internal reasons for the delayed delivery. And once I inform the buyer / spree participant about it, whatever the outcome is, they accept it and we close the case.
The question is, am I 100% liable for the lost package sent by normal mail and is 5 days (or rather, 3 working days) sufficient to condem a seller for failing to deliver the package and thus liable for the non-delivery?
She has doubts of me delivering the item. Can I have doubts as a seller that the package has been received but untraceable as its sent via normal mail?
I honestly feel she should have waited at least 10 days prior raising it to SingPost and Small Claims and/or CASE should never be in the picture. I'm in a very vulnerable situation at the moment. Or rather, ALL sellers / senders are in a vulnerable situation.
I wanna hear your views. What should I do? Refund and admit that its my fault for the non-delivery of the package and lose S$37 (S$18.50 for the item and S$18.50 for the refund)? Allow her to escalate the case to Small Claims where both of us fight our lives out for the sake of S$18.50?
Or, as a buyer, what will you do? Insist on the refund? What if the package finally arrived 2 weeks later? I have had instances of receiving a package as long as a month later. Blame yourself for being unlucky and insist on Registered Mail infuture? Or insist that SingPost strike off Normal Mail and all mails delivered should be traceable?
*No bad-mouthing or negative remarks to either parties please. Such comments will be deleted and IP address traced. Constructive feedback / comments please. Mon, Jun. 22nd, 2009 11:04 am (UTC)
![[info]](http://l-stat.livejournal.com/img/userinfo.gif) xxshuangxx
As a buyer, if i was the one who decided on normal mail, i would know that if the package goes missing, the seller is not liable for it. Of course I would check with Singpost but i believe 3 working days are not sufficient enough to deem an item lost. Singpost might just be slow or the parcel may be damaged and will require some time to reach the buyer's house. Of course... registered mail is still the safe avenue to take if one is afraid of items getting lost. Anyways I do believe that kimoko won't scam a person just for $18.50. That is totally unbelievable. Cheer up! =) Mon, Jun. 22nd, 2009 11:11 am (UTC)
vain_angel85
I agree with u.I've ever encountered delayed local mail too.Its usually due to package being too big or some damage to it during transit thus they need to repack it. Cheer up kim,there bound to be a peaceful solution to this. Mon, Jun. 22nd, 2009 11:09 am (UTC)
vain_angel85
If I were the buyer,I will wait for it to arrive.If it still doesn't then I'll let the seller know and see if she can raise a claim to Singpost. If it really doesn't arrive,settle it out of authorities with a peaceful settlement.Maybe not total refund,but 50% of it? Mon, Jun. 22nd, 2009 11:15 am (UTC)
herdeadheart
She actually did that? Now, if you really wanted to scam her, you wouldnt even send the first item, right? Have you tried tracing the package as well? As a seller/spree organiser point of view, if the buyer/participant were to opt for normal mail, then it's not the seller/organiser's fault if the package got lost. however i would try my best to try to track it (via the online enquiry form or call Singpost). So, it's not your fault, really. plus it has only been 5days. knowing Singpost, it could take up to 7days! Mon, Jun. 22nd, 2009 11:26 am (UTC)
moomeh
As a seller, I insist on registered mail. I only go for normal post on request and agreement with the buyer that I am not responsible for any missing packages. In the current situation, I advise to wait it out 2 weeks to a month and see if the item arrives in the meantime. As you mentioned, there has been instances that Singpost is really, really late. If it still does not arrive, it would really be up to you with regards to the small claims appearance. I personally can't afford the time so I might just pay off and strike her off my list. Although I maintain that Singpost and yourself, are unable to track the package. On a side note, is she a 'new' buyer? Is it even possible she is the one scamming? Mon, Jun. 22nd, 2009 11:35 am (UTC)
xoxochocolate
I once ordered a Feverlet BB cream from a reputable lj seller. I bought it for around $25, last november but until now I've never received it. I must admit it was my fault for choosing normal mail knowing that there are no gurantees when it comes to normal mail. There's a possibility that her package will turn up soon, but there's also a possibility that it went missing. But what can we expect, we're humans and mistakes are inevitable. No matter how good Singpost is, they make mistakes too. I don't think the buyer should put the responsibility on you since she was the one who decided the mode of collection. Hopefully she receives her item asap and everything will be fine! :) (I've been reading your lj for quite long just that I've never commented :) ) Mon, Jun. 22nd, 2009 11:55 am (UTC)
serenez
In the first place, I believe there is a form of trust between buyer and seller to initiate a transaction and especially in an online transaction. As a buyer I’d buy from someone whom I had a good previous experience or have a record of good feedback. Hence, because of that I think as a buyer one should also take some form of responsibility in the transaction that if one doesn't opt for registered mail, there is a chance of having the mail lost/delayed. For me, I’d usually write it off as a bad judgment for not opting for registered mail. Not that it’s a small sum, it’s just that I wouldn’t want to get so stressed or escalate the matter further. Afterall I feel that it would not only bring unnecessary trouble for others but for myself as well. Maybe the buyer can wait it out a little longer, as it could really have been delayed? Hope everything turns out for the better and the package is somehow delayed and turns up soon. (: Mon, Jun. 22nd, 2009 12:00 pm (UTC)
mauve_dreams
Usually when my packages arrive late, I'd first ask the sender when she sent the item. If the sender said she already sent it out, I'd usually give about 3-4 working days grace. If by then I still haven't received, I'd start to suspect lost mail, so I'd tell the seller if she receives my item back to her address, let me know. (But usually I'm just being paranoid cos' the item would arrive a few days later.) Unless the seller is a new seller I usually trust them and would fault myself for choosing normal mail. I don't think there's any reason why she should fault you because she was the one who chose normal mail. Normal mail has its risks and as a buyer who chose that option, she should have known that before accusing you of anything. You're definitely not at fault. Don't admit its your fault when it isn't. Just wait things out? I'm pretty certain either you or her would receive the mail soon. Mon, Jun. 22nd, 2009 12:03 pm (UTC)
archanglemerc
As for me, since it's a local mail, I will wait till 10-14 days to start worrying about the package. It's been only 5 days and local post isn't always reliable. I have been a seller/buyer myself, but I do agree it is not your responsibility if the package has gone missing because once the package is mailed, you have no control over it unless it has tracking number. Did you show her the receipt to prove that you have sent it? but well, 5 days is too early to start worrying! seriously! If you're intending to give her a full refund. I would suggest No! You should just refund her half of the total amount and close the case. But it's really too early to do it now, I'm pretty sure the package will show anytime soon this week since it's only Monday today. Good luck darling! You have been a trustable seller & buyer as always <3 Mon, Jun. 22nd, 2009 12:20 pm (UTC)
pishako
I think it's totally unnecessary to raise it to the small claims tribunal court. I suggest having a good chat with her and both of you keep each other in the email loop with regards to correspondences with Singpost. Do let her know that in the event if you do refund, it's purely out of goodwill. Besides, she has to be logical too. Who the heck scams for $18.50? If she's not agreeable to waiting things out, if I were you, I might just go to the police for harrassment, just to have a record to possibly safeguard myself. After all, when you make a police statement, it is as good as declaring that you are saying the truth. Mon, Jun. 22nd, 2009 12:52 pm (UTC)
enon_enen
hey Kimmy, i personally do not think that you should be liable for the lost package. i mean everyone is always aware that if you want to make sure you get the package, opt for registered mail. this has been the same for all online shopping.... so just let her claim by all means... Mon, Jun. 22nd, 2009 01:02 pm (UTC)
mjacqueline
That sucks, I'm very sorry to hear of this. I would ask her if she is willing to wait for a few more days. If the item doesn't come, I would eat humble pie and give her a refund. Sigh save yourself the drama. Personally as a buyer, i know that items do go missing. If the item costs quite a bit I would like to see that the seller offer some sort of solution. If it is a few dollars, count myself unlucky. Mon, Jun. 22nd, 2009 01:17 pm (UTC)
sw33tillusionz
I'm more of a buyer than a seller. I believe that you should not be liable since she was willing and acknowledged to use normal post, which is an option at risk of loss package(s). In any country, even if they state that you should receive packages 3-5 working days... it could take up to 7-14 working days. If you still have the receipt then there's no reason you should be liable at all, but did you just put stamps and drop it in the mailbox? =S I seriously hope the buyer is reading this post and all the comments posted here. I myself I've had 2 lost packages. One as a seller, the buyer opt for normal mail and understood the risk so didn't report me because she was aware of the risk (and I sent her proof of sending it off). Other case was a swap, the other person received my package, but I didn't receive mine (I waited for about a month). We both opt for normal post. I understood the risk so I didn't report it either. Fair trade. Mon, Jun. 22nd, 2009 01:34 pm (UTC)
theposhpig
As a seller, I think you should try to explain to her how ridiculous it is to bring this to Small Claims / CASE for just $18.50. All that time and effort just over $18.50, is that really worth it? Also, I would reiterate to her that by choosing normal mail, she is entering into a binding contract in which it is assumed that she understands that sellers are not liable for any lost mails. (I would assume that you would probably have stated this somewhere...? Maybe not directly to her but maybe on your lj or something?) Or if she doesn't accept that, do let her know also that once the item is out of your hands and in Singpost's hands, you have absolutely no control over the item any longer, so if it's lost, it's not your responsibility. I suppose if she really refuses to relent and insists on a refund, I'd probably just give it to her. Not because I'm admitting that I'm in the wrong, but because for all that trouble, it's just ridiculous. And if you can afford it, then I guess why not? But of course if the principle thing matters to you a lot, then don't do the refund. As a buyer, I suppose I would be quite disappointed with something lost in the mail and of course would try to find a way to locate the item as far as possible. Personally, I wouldn't go to Small Claims / CASE because I don't like to blow up matters (particularly if the amount is $18.50) and also because I understand that normal mail = chances that I may not receive my item because sellers can possibly cheat me or it may really get lost, so of course normal mail is always taking a risk, and by choosing to use normal mail I should always be prepared for the worst case scenario. But perhaps she may not understand that cuz she may be new to online shopping? Then in that case I guess you'll need to explain how online shopping works to her. Oh well, of course at the end of the day, it'll be great if this can be settled without going to the authorities, but it sounds like she isn't willing to let that happen, so in that case I suppose all you can do is explain your side of the story. I wouldn't want Singpost to remove the option of normal mail! :( It would make postage so much costlier. And in my years of online shopping too, I've never had any sellers lose any packages sent to me. One package that I sent to a buyer apparently got lost before, and I offered to compensate her even though it honestly wasn't my fault, but she said there wasn't a need to and she let it go really easily so I'm not sure if she was lying. o.0 And I've had a package that took two weeks to come before too... So yeah. It would definitely make more sense to wait before blowing things up like that. It's my first time commenting! :) (Silent reader, but I've bought stuff from you before. :)) Sorry for the lengthy comment though! In any case, good luck with this! Mon, Jun. 22nd, 2009 01:49 pm (UTC)
aichaku
as a sometimes-seller, i insist on registered mail for all packages i send out. ohoh now i worry, should have sent you the extra for registered mail of my purchase. i have had parcels lost before, basically, i just check with the post office. and once, an etsy seller sent a replacement item to me, when i didn't receive what i bought. i think it's down to luck and the situation, case-by-case? but going to CASE is probably going overboard. Mon, Jun. 22nd, 2009 02:13 pm (UTC)
prisc
As a seller, i'll advise the buyer to wait. Singpost has delayed packages before due to some problem with the packing i.e. torn envelope. As a buyer, it's just tough luck that i opted for normal post. I'll just accept that somehow my package got lost. Of course if it's an expensive item or a seller i'm not familiar with, i'll opt for reg post. Mon, Jun. 22nd, 2009 02:17 pm (UTC)
theotherworldly
I think you should negotiate for her to wait for an extended period of time, while you source for evidence that you encouraged Registered mail instead of normal mail. And you should also contact Singpost to do a more thorough check of any delayed postage or lost package, and keep her updated about it. Can you produce a receipt or something from Singpost to show you've mailed it? I think you should also fight for $18.50. I think this is the case because refunding should not be an option for you, to make up for a choice she made. I think she is rather hasty in making such an aggressive decision, but you should not back down either -- 5 days is too ridiculous a wait. She should have known all along that normal mail is taking her own chances. If you have to, you might want to lodge a complaint against her for threatening you with a suit. From her perspective, she may be just really worried you are cheating her money. This has happened very often, but it is usually the case with shady little blogshops opened by teenagers. If I were her I would be guiltless about pursuing the package from you because I would be afraid you cheated me of the package. It is understandable ... but unreasonable. Mon, Jun. 22nd, 2009 02:25 pm (UTC)
07percent
Just as she has no proof that you did mail it out, there's no proof to support that she has actually not received the item. Meaning, she might have already received it and is abusing the system to get the money back. If that's the case, ANYONE can claim that they didn't receive the item just by opting for normal mail and then saying that the seller cheated her. Honestly, I hate it the most, esp when they say " i've shopped online for (dunno how many) years, and i've nv had a lost mail until now", honestly, there's a first time for everything. But I personally would 'fight it out' because i just don't think it's fair to be accused of being a cheater when you're not. Mon, Jun. 22nd, 2009 02:30 pm (UTC)
hazellim
i think you should wait a while.
there was once my registered mail got lost too... and i had to go to post office to track for it. so even with registered mail, item do get lost. what's more normal mail.
maybe a few day later, the package just pop out. Mon, Jun. 22nd, 2009 02:32 pm (UTC)
orangeytown
as a buyer..i would hv informed you abt the missing package and wait it out for maybe a week before consulting Singpost.. ive lost 2 packages so far thru normail mails even after consulting Singpost..my package is still untraceable.. but as a buyer i considered dat my bad luck and my fault for not choosing registered mail.. and noeing u..u hv a high integrity as a seller.. maybe u jz check it out wif singpost for the buyer.. i mean u didnt do anything wrong.. Mon, Jun. 22nd, 2009 02:50 pm (UTC)
daintyzzz
Hi, I believe you should advise her to wait a few more days. As a buyer, I have more than 3 instances where I did not receive items for more than 1 week. Normally once I call Singpost, they would deliver my items within 3 days. There was only once where the parcel was lost and since I opt for normal mail, it is not certainly not the fault of the seller.We all know that normal mail does not ensure 100% delivery. Honestly, I would not insist on a refund because I jolly well know that if I am afraid of lost mails, I should paid an additional $2.24 for registered mail. You should fight it out because it's not your fault, really. Just my personal opinion though. Perhaps in future, you could state clearly that if one opts for normal mail, they could opt to pay additional $0.20 for a receipt from Singpost indicating that their item has been mailed out by you. Hope things will work out soon :) Mon, Jun. 22nd, 2009 03:22 pm (UTC)
bingzz
hey gal, cheer up! I think as a buyer, I should already trust you enough to buy from you. Normal mails are not 100% guaranteed to be delivered to your doorstep. I once waited a month for a package too. I have 2 to 3 packages lost in the mail too. If I chose to buy from someone, and I chose to use normal mail, I should be prepared to trust the person and not blame anyone if the mail is lost and see if we can solve it among ourselves. Mon, Jun. 22nd, 2009 03:49 pm (UTC)
(Anonymous)
Well, I've ordered from you before and the mail was late. Then add to that, my landlord did not check the mail for yonks and did not inform me. I did not over-react & report you to anyone. I just sent you a couple of emails confirming the date of the mail-out. You very patiently and politely replied. I waited for a week or two more and then it was there & I sheepishly sent you an email to acknowledge receipt. I've bought from you a couple of times and have never had any other problems, other than those caused by myself.
I agree with the rest that you should negotiate for a few more days before proceeding with refunding arrangements. 14 days grace as suggested by someone sounds about fair. Otherwise, you refund her, the parcel arrives, she has to refund you back ... it's a mess. Going to Small Claims for $18.50 is beyond silly.
As to SingPost, they once took almost a month to deliver something to me. And other times it only took a couple of days. It's the luck of the draw. Can't blame anyone if you do not register mail it. I take my chances as I still like to have faith in my fellow mankind & the Singapore infrastructure. (I know ... sucker!)
5 days is really nothing to get all legalistic and anxious about. Sorry you had such a bad week. Take your time with my order (the Emanuel Ungaro). I can wait.
Steph Mon, Jun. 22nd, 2009 03:57 pm (UTC)
tutukueh: aiyooo
chill babe, in some cases, i once had a case of receiving by normal mail after 2 weeks after when it has been sent. And I have cases of lost mail due to choosing normal mail as a spree-er. So I feel it would be the responsibility of a spree-er to opt of a normal mail if the items are $10 and above. Mon, Jun. 22nd, 2009 04:00 pm (UTC)
forest330
Hi dear, from what i gathered from your post and your twitter. I believed this buyer is not a first time buyer from you. On that basis, i can't help but think that she's abit unreasonable or maybe out to take advantage. 3 workings days is too short to determine the status of the package. Like wat the others have said, there might be delays due to repackaging and other reasons. You should try to convince her to wait for the est of the week as it's only monday today. I believe that there's a high chance that the package might turn up. If indeed the package is lost, i don't think that you are required to refund her. You just have to ensure that you have proof of mailing out the packaging and also the fact that you are not liable if the buyer decides on normal mail. I personally chose normal mail most of the time though sometime the value of the package can go up to $40 over. I must say that i am lucky to have not experience lost mail but i did exprience situation where my package is repacked. Sometimes, i belived, if there is several package to the same address, Singpost will consolidate the packages and deliver them on the same day and hence might delay one of them. Even if the case of lost mail, i will only blame myself for scrimping on that $2 for reg mail. (Though if i have a choice, i will chose meet ups :P) Do try to talk with her again. There is really no need to go thru the authorities for $18.50. I am sure that she's just anxious in wanting to get her item and made a hasty decision instead. Mon, Jun. 22nd, 2009 04:00 pm (UTC)
zxdbd
well i had a case once, where i sent out a parcel to my buyer ( thank god she's supa patient and nice :) usually my ppl receive their parcels within 1-3 days at most, cos i send it out early early; but that case was like 5-7 days i think. i got so worried!! PHEW! she got it in the end =) and that time i emailed her every single day cause i def didn't wanna be misunderstood as, you've said *sigh* ur buyer perhaps, should learn to uds that packages do get delayed.... singpost aint dealing with only 1 parcel :))) |
